A few various things..
A few notes we would like to share with our users.
First: On Saturday, Jessica Lyon and Arabella Steadham sat down and answered questions on a live broadcast called Rezzed.tv. You can watch the recording of that interview here: http://rezzed.tv/2010/08/rezzed-tv-presents-emerald-your-questions-answered/.
Second: Windows users, please note that if you update to 2587, you may experience crashes on login. We have determined this is a bug related to Windows and how it handles temporary files. Although the 2587 installer no longer contains emkdu, Windows seems to be pulling it from our users’ temporary Windows files. Despite an update we made to our installer which looks for emkdu and attempts to delete it if present, the issue still seems to be present for some users.
To be sure to avoid this, please follow these steps prior to installing 2587.
1/ Using Windows Search, search for emkdu.dll and delete all instances of it.
2/ Install 2587 but don’t launch it yet.
3/ Go into your 2587 install folder, look for emkdu.dll. If you see it, delete it.
4/ Launch the viewer.
Third: We have decided that it will be safer for us to provide our list of requirements from LL as we achieve them. What is most important right now is the preservation of the viewer project and our ability to fulfill the requirements. Announcing the items we have not yet fulfilled may put our ability to fulfill them at risk and thus, put the project at risk. We will continue to provide you with our requirements as we achieve them.
The following is a list of requirements we feel we have fulfilled so far.
1/ Use open mailing lists or forums for your developer communications. We will all be dedicating more time on our forum to respond to your questions and concerns from this point forward. In the past we have not been dedicated to our forum due to time constraints, this changes now.
2/ Provide a publicly viewable source code repository. We have created a public Mercurial source code repository for our users. This repository is kept up to date in real time. When we make a change to the code, it will be added to the repository. All our users will essentially be able to watch us work and see our code changes and additions from this point forward. http://hg.emeraldviewer.net/
3/ Provide public code commit notices. You will note on our hg repository page, there is an RSS feed button. This will keep our users up to date with all of our code commit messages.
4/ Require each committer to provide real-world identity information to Linden Lab as a signatory to the certification of compliance with the Third Party Viewer Policy. To the best of our knowledge, Linden Lab has the RL information for each and every one of us. We have however, asked LL to verify that they do and anyone they don’t have, we will provide it.
5/ Update your posted Privacy Policy for the Emerald Viewer to specifically describe what user data has been collected or stored by any version of the Emerald viewer that may be used to log into Second Life. For all user data collected or stored, specifically describe in the policy how that user data has been used, displayed or shared. We have updated our Privacy Policy and are waiting for word from LL if it is acceptable. You may review it here: http://emeraldviewer.net/privacypolicy.shtml
We do not yet know if Linden Lab is satisfied that we have fulfilled these items yet. If they say they don’t feel we’ve done enough, we will do more. ADDED< There are two items left to fulfill, we will make them public as soon as we have done so>
We know that we have to earn back the trust of both the user community and of Linden Lab. We understand where LL’s coming from, and we’re working hard to meet their requirements while still maintaining a viable development process for Emerald. We honestly believe it’s the best viewer on the grid, and want to keep it that way. We’ll do what it takes to stay on top, both technically and in the minds of our users.
Sincerely, The Emerald Viewer Dev Team
Explain to me how keeping the list of requirements secret until you fulfill them will enable, or increase the chance of completing them or how announcing the whole list would be detrimental to your efforts. . . I honestly think you’re hiding something which you do not want your users to know.
Riku Highfield said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:08 am |
Did you not read the post? They posted the list right in this VERY post.
Sara said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:10 am |
Ummm, you might wanna pay careful attention to the post before accusing people of not reading the post. “The following is a list of requirements we feel we have fulfilled so far.” These are only a part of the overall list. . . These are the ones they have completed.
Riku Highfield said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:11 pm
The explanation is easy. To the normal Joe it would be overwhelming but to the developers it just a matter of getting it fixed. Yes I think they should have been watching it closer not letting things like this happen but the Normal Joe could say the same with things that go wrong in his life.
If you have to go to another viewer to feel safe then go but LL will find things wrong down the road with it too, especially if it is like Emerald which comes in 2nd to the V2.
Jewells said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:44 pm |
You underestimate the average Emerald user. It’s not a big deal. . . I for one wouldn’t panic if the list was 100 items long. . . I don’t care if they want to keep everything secret, BUT they shouldn’t tell us they are going to be transparent, have something as big as this list concealed.
Riku Highfield said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:15 pm
“If you have to go to another viewer to feel safe then go but LL will find things wrong down the road with it too”
You say it as if LL hated TPVs. If they did, they’d just ban Emerald at first messup. And they CERTAINLY wouldn’t be giving Emerald another chance.
LL makes no gain off of TPVs and takes no less. The only reason they’d be butthurt about TPVs is if they were some immature kid that gets butthurt if someone makes stuff better than them. And this is a company we’re talking about.
The Emerald team messed up. LL is merely disciplining them for the security of Emerald users. And yes, LL does have a responsibility to Emerald users as its STILL their servers and quite possibly, LL could be pulled into any legal mess Emerald might cause.
Janus said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:14 pm
Ummm, this is the part you apparently didn’t read:
“Announcing the items we have not yet fulfilled may put our ability to fulfill them at risk and thus, put the project at risk.”
There are people out there who would love to bring Emerald down. It is reasonable to keep the requirements secret from those people because they might try to interfere with the success of the Emerald project.
Edward Starsmith said this on August 30, 2010 at 5:22 pm |
“Explain to me how keeping the list of requirements secret until you fulfill them will enable, or increase the chance of completing them or how announcing the whole list would be detrimental to your efforts. . .” <– Read. Look up 'detrimental' if you have to.
Riku Highfield said this on August 30, 2010 at 8:39 pm
I just wanted to say despite Linden labs claims of Emerald being unsafe, etc. Despite all the panic and BS, I’ve stuck with you guys. I know you guys are trying and I won’t stop using emerald just because LL is stomping their foot about a mistake someone made. I know you guys try your best and I LOVE your viewer. I don’t care what ANYONE says, Emerald Viewer is the BEST viewer out there, and until it stops being the best, i will ALWAYS use it. I HATE viewer 2 with a passion and I know the other viewers that claim to be like Emerald are just cheap imitations. Please, keep up the hard work guys, because you will always have people like me behind you 100%. <3
Sara said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:08 am |
That’s not how this should work. I love the viewer, too. In fact, I do believe it to be the best viewer for SL, but we, as the Emerald users, need to hold the team up to higher standards. We don’t want to be blind enablers. They messed up big-time. And even lied on the blog quite a few times, making me wonder if this new leadership even means anything. All this constitutes a huge breach of trust for me.
It’s like a lover that’s been staying out late. You want to trust them, REALLY want to, but you know it’s EXTREMELY stupid to just throw yourself at them, believing every word they say.
I’ll still use Emerald, but I still feel uneasy.
Janus said this on August 30, 2010 at 5:03 pm |
I for one still trust Emerald. and will continue to use it. Thank You for keeping us in the loop. and I look forward to an even better Viewer.
Tee Cramer said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:12 am |
Ditto. Despite the fact Emerald is the only viewer I can run on EVERY linux distrib I use, not like the 2.0 nor Emergence.
<3 Emerald Viewer!
Miguael Liamano said this on August 30, 2010 at 3:33 pm |
I meant “besides, Emerald [...]“, not “despite the fact Emerald [...]“, Sorry.
Miguael Liamano said this on August 30, 2010 at 3:34 pm
Which Linux distributions can you not get Cool VL or FrozenGlobe — which are written for Linux and then ported over to Windows — to run on? If you send Henri Beauchamp details, I’m sure he’ll do his best to fix it.
Innula Zenovka said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:57 pm
You re so right Jessica and whole dev team.We fight to the end n we’ll winn !!!
Cinderella Stromfield said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:12 am |
WOW… It seems like you’ve done enough already although you’ve shown us only 5 conditions. Just how long IS that list from LL anyway? Sounds book length.
Can understand that LL may like some guarantee of future compliance, but it sounds like they’re asking WAY too much and the list may never end. Perhaps they’ll keep adding to it as you meet each condition.
If they’re going to curtail your efforts to that degree, they might as well write the blasted viewer themselves….. no, wait… WHAT AM I SAYING? LL tried that and it was an unmitigated disaster….. :-)
Alex said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:20 am |
Let’s be honest here. Most users only want to know is ‘do any of the changes LL wants affect my favourite feature’ and they could care less about things like publicly viewable source (partly because they are no coders).
So why not give us that subset (if it exists) of the requirements? It hardly inspires trust in the ‘new and open atmosphere’.
Kara Spengler said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:21 am |
Let face it yes there was a problem with Emerald, but in all reality what viewer did you see everyone using the most :) Why cause they liked the features. Its either Emerald or Viewer 2. I see more of emerald than the V2. Now look who is taking a fall and I don’t see many people saying in these post they are going to v2
Jewells said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:49 pm |
Ick V2.. shush bite your tongue
Hollywood said this on August 30, 2010 at 3:28 pm
This is great, I do believe Emerald Beta is the best viewer on the grid and I’d love to see things going great again.
But I’m with Riku, your “requirements secret” clause sounds just like the old Modular Systems — why are we even on that blog — I thought we were off Modular?? — anyway, sounds like the old Modular.
I thought the big lesson, the big new pledge was for openness and transparency. I don’t see how you get to Open & Transparent thru secrecy!?
I think this is a not small misstep. It suggests exactly the kind of behavior that had your users unwitting dupes in internationally illegal activities and in having their personal information pirated by you.
PLEASE move to open & transparent.
On the other hand, what Emerald has achieved as a viewer must not be forgotten. I have no idea how much money T Linden & Co spent to create a viewer that, every time you click, reminds you that it was made by NON-Residents who wanted to make a sexy-web-like-flash-like interface, it was made by NON-Residents who, like the Romans with their armies, or the Americans with their bombs, thought that they could take over and tell us how to live.
By contrast, every single click in Emerald, you smile and say, WoW, this was made by real residents, this was designed by someone who actually lives in this world, uses this world, understands this world, respects this world.
The fact that a teenager and some friends could do a better job than the pros is extraordinary and wonderful.
Now we just want you to be responsible adults. PLEASE be more Open & Transparent!
Vaneeesa Blaylock said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:27 am |
Vaneeesa — U are an articulate, class Lady. U express so clearly the essence of this issue. Emerald was designed by people who actually live in this world, use this world, understand this world, respect this world.
As a 5-year SL resident i have seen a singular pattern of “devolution” in LL, that being their progressive isolation and disassociation from the very community that put them on the map. V2 is the crowning achievement and testimonial proof of the truth of this phenom.
Instead of teaming with the incredibly resource rich, experienced core community, they progressively alienate themselves from it, focusing on exploiting an inexperienced noob community that knows no better. The ultimate expression of this, not just in the recent V2 and LL track housing initiatives, is the fact that a woman realtor here, who made her millions almost exclusively by exploiting the noob community, is tauted in real life magazines as the entrepreneureal wonder of our age. LL’s response to her exploitive tactics? “While what she does may be considered highly unethical behavior, it is not illegal.” A sobering sign of the times.
The immense pool of creative, ingenious, articulate, cultured and savvy core community talent here, goes untapped. To say nothing of the caliber of spirits that journey here in this all too real and wondrous digital world. As long as people like u continue to inhabit this world, we can joyfully say, “We’re gonnah be ok.” Nuff for now. tc.
Jean Severine said this on September 2, 2010 at 3:31 pm |
“We have a list of requirements, but Linden won’t let us tell you what they are? Oops, Linden will let us tell you, but we’re not going to, and we can’t tell you why — just trust us.”
Open and transparent?
Gaea Morpork said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:47 am |
Seriously do you idiots not read the whole post? The posted the requirements right there. Like RIGHT THERE.
Sara said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:51 am |
Whose the idiot who missed the fact that it’s only a part of the total list?
Riku Highfield said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Seriously did this idiot not read the whole post? The posted their achieved requirements right there. Like RIGHT THERE.
KaraSpengler said this on August 30, 2010 at 2:09 pm
I swear some people just post things to be heard, whether they have read the entire article or not.
Anonymous said this on August 30, 2010 at 5:01 pm
I have a different take on the requirements list. I think it is Linden Labs disclosure policy is the reason the Emerald team can’t say what is on the list. Rather than pointing the finger at them, do what seems clear to me: Linden Labs sent those requirements to Emerald with a non-disclosure policy attached.
Interesting it is, the FUD around the rogue developers that went over the line is causing people to lose trust in Emerald, yet are blind to the hidden things Linden Labs does.
Insight Homewood said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:53 am |
Apparently you didn’t read the Emerald Teams blog then where they clearly state that LLs did NOT require them to keep the list confidential.
I’m a huge supporter of the Emerald team and the great viewer they created and I will use it until it is impossible for me to get to SL with it.
But the Team has a credibility issue right now, they need to win the trust of the community back and you can’t do that while you remain secretive.
And honestly, what could possibly be in the list of requirements that simply by revealing it as a requirement would cause harm to their efforts to fix it?
Come on guys, do act like a politician, actually BE open and transparent.
FaTeke said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:11 pm |
“”"Come on guys, do act like a politician, actually BE open and transparent.”"FaTeke said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:11 pm
hahaha, dats funny
wste said this on August 31, 2010 at 12:55 am
The problem is not our installer. The problem is that Windows Install finds the file if it’s on the system and sucks it in, because it thinks that it needs to do so to repair a “broken” install. Windows is being too smart about it.
Tonya Souther said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:55 am |
Maybe I’m just not demanding enough, but if Emerald works (and it does) and my computer security isn’t compromised (how would I know anyway?) – then all the rest is ‘inside the beltway’ squabbling and nit-picking. Yep, if I decide the Emerald viewer isn’t working for me, I’ll move on (ditto, Second Life itself). So far, I see some pretty frightened folks (Modular) working like crazy to repair a bad relationship — and risking having their work trash-canned by a jealous Linden Labs (who love their own version 2). That’s just an ‘outside the beltway’ opinion, FYI. Maybe the entire gang is one big happy family working to provide a great experience for users of their respective browsers. But I’m not THAT naive!
DocNolan said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:02 am |
Like has already been said, if LL didn’t like Emerald, they could ban them outright from logging in. If LL didn’t like Emerald, they wouldn’t be giving Emerald a second chance, they would’ve blocked logins the day this whole mess started. Give LL some credit. They’re just worried about their users. (And don’t say it’s Emerald’s users, they’re still accessing Linden Labs’ servers, so it’s still Linden Labs’ users, too).
Janus said this on August 30, 2010 at 4:52 pm |
With any company or organization there is a level of secrecy even when government officials state that changes in products or business models are required. The reason for this is trade secrets and intellectual property rights to name a couple; I am sure there are more.
I know it is different since it is an open source community. However Emerald has the right to disclose information as they see fit. Even if you don’t like it, Emerald is a business. I think they are being quite transparent about what is going on. They never had to tell us that LL handed down a list of demands and they are certainly not obligated to tell us what they are. For the most part they have done this.
Right now the Emerald team is rebuilding itself under new management, having to meet LL’s demands, rebuild the trust of their community all while maintaining tons of code and giving its users a stable viewer with the kind of experience they have come to enjoy. There is a lot of pressure on this team, let them work. As the saying goes Rome was not built in a day.
I think the emerald team should be applauded for their efforts so far. Mistakes will continue to be made because they are human beings, not machines. They will learn from the mistakes of the past and make them better for the future.
I am sticking with this viewer, if anyone else chooses to stop using it, by all means go to another one. I, however, am not letting this drama and grandstanding from the community make me change my mind. If emerald becomes a horrible viewer, then I will switch. It is still the best viewer on the grid.
Thanks Emerald!!!! Keep up the good work!!!!
Kaworu Juneberry said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:09 am |
Very well stated. I agree 100%. Just too much drama and panic. Keep up the great work Emerald. I am sticking with you.
Just wish there were more people viewing all this in an adult manner.
Chief Blackhawk said this on September 1, 2010 at 5:40 am |
The best of luck , I hope that you will be back on top soon. Its strange how LL require you to be BETTER than they are. you have to talk to your “customers”, it would be good if they took note of the requirements themselves now and then
Taff Nouvelle said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:13 am |
Followed your download instructions to the letter and in step 3 found it was still in from your download.
Ok I deleted it, but I bet we are only a few Emerald Users that read your Blog and might be not all that read will delete this file.
June said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:21 am |
I think that if they published the list prior to completing it, they would be open to sabotage. Emerald is THE BEST viewer period, and some people (? LL people too ?) just can’t stand that.
judith underwood said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:38 am |
If LL were that jealous they would have been within rights to ban Emerald, period. If Emerald wasn’t far superior to any other viewer in so many peoples opinion it would have been dropped like a hot brick by users & disappeared into SL history. I personally am using LGG’s viewer Emergence for the time being until Emerald is restored to the LL list & doesn’t require me to mess around with the install.
I used Emerald because it suited me best unlike other viewers & believe the freedom to choose is a great thing, like choosing which brand of car you drive or what make of tv you prefer. I don’t care for the drama ~& misinformation or the childish fights. Use which ever viewer you prefer & allow others the same freedom.
I hope the Emerald team use this learning curve wisely. A great product deserves a second chance, in my humble opinion BUT don’t test we loyal ones again like this because we have better stuff to do with our time lol!
Grateful thanks to the innocent hard working ones left to sort this mess out.
WHAT DOESNT KILL YOU MAKES YOU STRONGER – GO TEAM EMERALD
Sapphy said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:44 am |
Hang in there Emerald devs…..we are still here and waiting for you ….beta looks cool :o)
A nony mouse said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:54 am |
emerald what is up with the regular viewer? why will the regular viewer not download properly? i mean i do have the beta installed but i am running into rezzing problems. so why can i not download and install the original viewer?
Victoria said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:12 pm |
FWIW: I installed 1.50 and the installer must have deleted emkdu.dll properly. It is no longer on my system.
Kwak said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:14 pm |
Congratulations on achieving so much in such a short time! The Emerald viewer is a great product, and I’m proud to use it. I hope that the detractors will see the error of their ways or will move on to another viewer and leave us in peace.
Xavier said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:37 pm |
Well I am happy that Emerald is still around. I would be completely lost without the Emerald Viewer. The other 3rd party viewers seem too simular to the original LL viewers and some arent even complete. You have to drag files from the original viewer and place into the folder with is a double download process if you ask me. I hope that Emerald is around for a long time and I know how the world can be. Nothing goes to plan all the time. Keep up the good work Emerald team! I’ll be rooting for you. <3
Xiu Foxclaw said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:50 pm |
Please post news of when we can simply download and install the update without having to be programmers or figure out the obscurities of our operating system. Plus the person above said your version still had the bad part. OK – off to investigate other viewers, and if they don’t work well I still have LL version 1.something on a flash drive. Feel free to send an email if things get fixed.
W.A. said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:55 pm |
The installer needs to purge %USERPROFILE%\Local Settings\Temp\emerald\ first before downloading and extracting EMEXT_WIN.7z.
Kadah said this on August 30, 2010 at 12:58 pm |
I followed the download….AND IT WORKED !!!!!!! No more emkdu.ll BUT when you search out the emdku file you have to go to advanced search to find it hiding
Regular search turns up nothing. Also uninstall Emerald and do search for Emerald after uninstall and delete anything that comes uo…Restart your computer…then download the beta. I did this and all my problems have stopped
Jacquie said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:00 pm |
Ok I now done an Enhanced Search and it was found now deleted.
Gone back into SL to where I logged out and now getting 14 fps was 17 fps.
:-(
June said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:16 pm |
I can see the reason for not publishing the entire list.. one being to keep from publicizing security holes and exploits that some hacker can then use. Then there is the outcry from at least the lovely people who just want to cry out about something especially if it can be anti-emerald. Linden is monitoring this, and I think that if any of the items on the list warrented the public being told/warned they would have done so themselves (yes Virginia, why didn’t LINDEN LABS just release the list themselves? Ahh! It’s the ‘Emerald Conspiracy of Secrecy’ someone mentioned above. LOL)
Caitlen said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:03 pm |
“I can see the reason for not publishing the entire list.. one being to keep from publicizing security holes and exploits that some hacker can then use.”
Do you really think the Emerald devs are continuing to distribute Emerald while knowing that there’s some security holes and exploits a hacker could use, in the hope they — Emerald — can fix these problems before a hacker spots them, because they’re worried about public reaction if it’s revealed the holes exist? Seems rather irresponsible if they are behaving as you imply they are.
I have to say, I’m puzzled. To my mind, an obvious requirement, under the circumstances, would be for LL to ask the Emerald team to conduct a thorough audit of the existing code, looking particularly at any security/privacy issues they thought they’d fixed (as was the case with Phox’s repeated and unsuccessful attempts to fix the emkdu issue) and at any code written by Fractured Crystal, and also examining specific things that LL may have identified as causes for concern. I’d be astonished if Emerald didn’t want to do that anyway.
And I certainly don’t see the harm in saying that’s what they’re doing, if that’s what it is.
Innula Zenovka said this on August 31, 2010 at 12:19 am |
I have to say something here about a viewer that people keep telling everyone to use instead of the Great Emerald that I love. IF you would read what LGG has said on his website..He is NOT GOING TO UPDATE IT!!!!!!! Let me see, what dose that mean..well look at it this way what happens when they update the SL viewer and you did not? It will start to have serious problems, not that it dose not have some now..Like things not rezzing right or not at all. It is Good that LGG made this for people who want to take a break from the Emerald but lets be honest WHY should you? If you are reading and doing the things Jessica tells you to do then you are safe with the Emerald and you do not need to change to something else…I have and do use the SL viewer off and on and one minutes it is working ok and the next it is not. It is just a reminder as why I love the Emerald. So please do your research and then decided which you would like to use, which one will not be as much of a hassle to use.
One thing about GREIFERS. I have been at the meetings, interviews with the Emerald team, read a lot of the blogs, listen to the Utubes, and other stuff that has come from what has happen to the Emerald. I just want to say what I see is that the GREIFERS are getting DESPERATE in how they are trying to bring the Emerald down, so please read between the lines and listen to Jessica..she is the one you can trust!!!!
Thank you for reading this.
Cyndi Laville said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:11 pm |
The Emerald Team is disclosing the requirements as they comply with specific infomation on how they feel they achieved the compliance. This to me is OPEN & TRANSPARENT. Does it really matter to anyone if Linden Labs demands to know if the Emerald Taam folds or crumples their tolet paper after a bowel movement? — The list is irrelevaent – only HOW Emerald complied, if Linden agrees they complied – and unltimatly if that complaince affects the viewer as each individual uses it. I read what was requested by Linden Labs and what they did to comply — decide if it adversly affects MEEEEEEEEEE and my use of Emerald, and then evaluate my personal use of the viewer. Each user needs to decide for themselves – am I personally content with the Enmeald Viewer – if I am, I continue to use it…if I am not I move to another viewer. My decision to use or not use the Emerald Viewer affects no one but ME. I continue to use Emerald — but watch and listen and read FACTS – and I will make (and continue to make) an intelliegent decision about that use.
lauren zipper said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:22 pm |
I said we will disclose the entire list, and I WILL disclose the entire list. Are folks that impatient as to risk the existence of the Emerald Viewer so you can get a peak at the last remaining items? There are TWO items left on the list. We do not and are not obligated to disclose anything. I find it ironic that in our efforts to be transparent we are being accused of not being transparent. I said I would disclose the list, and I will disclose the list. I’m not prepared to risk this project because of impatient people. Be patient please! You WILL get your list! thanks!
p.s. Explaining ‘how’ it could compromise our ability to fulfill these requirements would comprise our ability to fulfill these requirements. It will all be out in the open very soon.
jessicamodularsystems said this on August 30, 2010 at 1:26 pm |
Jessica, on the 25th you were saying, “Yesterday, the Emerald Development team received a large list of requirements and conditions from LL….
…Although some of these conditions will be very difficult, we feel they are reasonable considering recent events. Due to that difficulty however, some will take more time than others to fulfill. It is a big list of things that we need to do and we will be providing LL with a time frame on each individual item by Friday”
This seems to have been a very pessimistic estimate, since you’re now saying you’ve knocked off all but two of this “long list” already (in fact, you seemed, from what you were saying in the interview, to have completed most of them on Saturday), and the remaining two items will be completed “very soon”.
Are you yet in a position to estimate how long the two outstanding tasks might take?
Innula Zenovka said this on August 30, 2010 at 3:38 pm |
Actually, Edward did a very good job explaining how when he said “There are people out there who would love to bring Emerald down. It is reasonable to keep the requirements secret from those people because they might try to interfere with the success of the Emerald project.” and I am pretty sure he doesn’t know the list.
Another point I have to bring up is: You said that you had “a large list of requirements and conditions from LL.” A 7-item list is large?
Riku Highfield said this on August 30, 2010 at 8:48 pm |
7 items in legal-speak can be quite long, and intimidating.
PatrickR Bleac said this on August 30, 2010 at 11:43 pm
Ok, you do not want to tell us the last 2 items until they are done. We get that. Some are happy, some are not happy. Part of the reason we want to know is that we were being told emerald was being held to a higher standard than other TPVs.
Without telling us what the exact requirements are, can you at least tell us if either of the two remaining requirements will affect the code base? In other words, will we lose functionality or are they changes that do not rely on a coder?
KaraSpengler said this on August 31, 2010 at 3:34 am |
Despite everything I have never stopped trusting Emerald, and will continue to do so 100%
I don’t want to see a (to me) meaningless list of problems, all I ask is what we are being given, a promise that the issues are being addressed.
Eduard Korhonen said this on August 30, 2010 at 2:16 pm |
Please explain why we should delete emkdu.dll? I’m certainly not, as I actually care about my texture loading performance. I’m going to do everything I can to actually keep it, so I’d really like to hear an actual reason why we should get rid of it! This business with this blasted dll is really pissing me off.
Unless we can replace it with something EXACTLY the same in terms of performance, I am never going to get rid of it. Please explain this! Are you ever going to be providing it again? I already thought it was clean… Are you seriously requiring US to delete it just because of some stupid GPL?
Mael said this on August 30, 2010 at 2:29 pm |
The requierement does not exactly stem from GPL, because it’s a fully optional component. The same licensing issue would otherwise be faced with Growl or FMOD integration. However, for those libraries trusted, redistributable binaries are available. llkdu is trusted but not redistributable, so the choice of developers to license kdu for their own use (emkdu) was correct at that time.
However, in the eyes of Lindens the trust in emkdu has been broken, thus they have (politely) asked to stop distributing it. However, this is not enforceable against you as an individual user, you can still use emkdu as you like.
I suspect though, with some clever scheduling tricks the performance of built in image decoder (openjpeg) can be in general brought almost up to par with kdu-based ones, while memory consumption can be kept lower than with kdu.
Siana Gearz said this on August 31, 2010 at 12:56 pm |
I for one would like to see a list of TPV devs who meet the same criteria as they are REQUIRING of Emerald … an oppinion I will be expressing to them tonight. Go Green team ;)
Stan said this on August 30, 2010 at 3:18 pm |
I have been watching this situation and the interviews very closely because I’m now involved with viewer development myself. Unfortunately from what I see this project may be missing a few important points.
Developer Communications: Typically on open source project uses an email mailing list for development communication. This is done for a few reasons. One is that mailing lists cannot be censored, conveniently erased, or centrally controlled unlike what we’ve seen here in the past. Development is done in the open, in view of whoever wants to watch. It sets an open tone. This project is still hiding much of its own inter-developer communication.
Responsibility: Someone ultimately has to be in charge. Everyone should know which one person has the final say on be released bits posted to the website. This person doesn’t have to be 100% right all the time, but it’s understood that if tthey don’t manage the project well, other developers will move on to greener pastures. We still don’t know who this is. If you can’t name a team lead, your team is setting itself up for further drama the next time there’s a disagreement, or leaves itself open to abuses. Someone should stand up and we should all know who they are.
Open Source Culture: I’ve heard ‘We’re worried that another viewer will be able to use our changes before we can release’, as if this was a bad thing! I’ve heard ‘We didn’t want to share our speed changes to emkdu because we wanted to have that exclusive to just us’. I’ve also heard ‘Yes, we’ve been violating the GPL for a while but since LL wasn’t enforcing it we thought it was ok.” These kinds of motivations are fighting open source instead of embracing it. There’s still excuses being made for secrecy that have no place in an open project. Be good citizens and gain some real karma: Share speed improvements with the larger community. Realize that imitation is the highest form of flattery and encourage it. This isn’t just good advice, it’s the spirit of the license you agreed to follow when you downloaded LL’s snowglobe code! Stop being concerned with immature griefer wars. Just do your own thing.
LL’s requirements are one of the three elephants in the room. This project has said “We’re going to work openly” but won’t show what its working towards. No lesson appears to have been learned. Again we hear ‘Some people hate us and we don’t want them to know…”. This is a self-fulfilling road to ruin, creating a culture of exclusion right from the start. It’s already driving people away that would have otherwise helped.
The second elephant in the room is the scapegoating of Fractured Crystal. In the interviews much is made of Fractured Crystal being the single source of ethics violations in the project, while also being portrayed as an entrepreneur victimized by rumors. Neither of these stories holds any water. Some developers on this team spoke against the questionable activities, some looked the other way and split hairs, and others were involved as more than spectators. Every time we hear in an interview that Fractured Crystal was the the single source of all ethical issues in Emerald, the team’s credibility suffers. Instead of either apologizing for or blaming Fractured, you would be best served to say “In the past some developers used the project for personal projects not necessarily in the interest of our users. We consider this unacceptable, and have told all of our developers that going forward, all activities will be for the public benefit or our users, not private interests”
The third elephant in the room is the amount of reputable developers that have left the project *prior* to the DDOS incident. While each had their individual reasons for leaving, many familiar themes of distrust and lack of openness were echoed. In my mind these people were more brave and more honorable than those who abandoned modularsystems only when circumstances forced the issue. The loss of so many talented developers, many with good public reputations especially in contrast to those that remain, is an unaddressed reason for user concern. If there is truly a change in this project, one would hope to see warmer efforts of rapprochement, or at least some positive statements from respected past contributors.
Finally the public description of emdku’s creation don’t ring entirely true to a technical ear. It’s clear that this file was specifically chosen in part because of its ability to be a cloaked private mechanism which which to insert undisclosed functionality into the viewer for the use of a privileged few. It doesn’t matter whether the story we hear is that it was only for DRM, that is still wrong. Rather modest speed improvements may have been another one of the reasons, but it was not the only one. Do your technical audience a favor and stop pretending that emdku was purely innocent, or that this file had to use encrypted texture metadata for licensing reasons. In general stop spinning explanations. There’s more spin now than there was last Sunday at Paisley’s interview, and this isn’t a good thing. You can simply say, “It was a file controlled by one developer which allowed someone with the right password to collect limited data about a user’s installation, which we now realize was a privacy violation and a potential for future abuse.”. Simple, true, and it shows that you understand why it was wrong.
I would like to see the viewer thrive be among the very best SL has to offer. In all of these interviews and posts I think there’s a long way to go. Best of luck, I’m still hoping for more positive changes.
Arrehn said this on August 30, 2010 at 3:23 pm |
I’ve stayed out of this mess, but I have to join it now over this post.
Bravo. Clear, concise, and not fueled by fanboy rage. Arrehn, you are the single most levelheaded person I’ve seen throw their hat into this circus.
So you’re working on a viewer too eh? I’m gonna have to do some digging, because you’ve piqued my interest in whatever the project may be simply by the way you handle yourself.
Achron said this on August 30, 2010 at 4:19 pm |
Arrehn, although I have a 20-year-plus career in information systems as a technical writer and business analyst, I’m not “technical” in the programmer sense. So I won’t pretend to know more than I do regarding code.
However, one thing I do know is communications and public relations. When someone comes along and tries to not just suggest to another person the gist of what might be said in a given situation, but actually writes specific sentences another person “can simply say,” that makes me highly suspicious. All human beings have highly individual ways of expressing themselves. If you want the Emerald team to communicate in a certain specific way, then volunteer your services on their communications team. Otherwise, leave your self-important puffery at the door and just say what YOU have to say in your own words. Let others do the same for themselves. Stop trying to put words in other peoples’ mouths.
As for your own words, you start off by saying you’ve watched from the sidelines, but are “now involved with viewer development” yourself. So you decided to comment on the current situation. Yet you fail to disclose which viewer and what development project you are on. Hmmmm…
As for me, you know who I blame for the lion’s share of this fiasco? Linden Lab. That’s right. Old LL, itself. Does it want to support open source, or doesn’t it? If it does, to what purpose? Does it encourage third party viewers or not? Why is the SL open source effort rudderless? Because LL appears to have little interest in it. LL appears to tolerate it rather than truly support it in an active, positive way.
LL’s failure to offer the public a really excellent in-house viewer is directly responsible for Emerald’s wild growth in popularity. I can’t speak to whether or not the honchos over at LL are jealous of Emerald’s success, but can speak to the obvious fact that they have failed miserably to understand why it is. They have failed equally miserably in adopting the best concepts in Emerald so as to give their own customers the richest, most enjoyable experience possible.
Sirius Selona said this on August 30, 2010 at 4:39 pm |
Well said.
Alex said this on August 31, 2010 at 4:32 pm |
Hi Emerald Dev Team. I’m in your corner 100% and then some. I first joined SL on May 30, 2009. Was using an underpowered (for SL) laptop back then, and the experience was shaky at best. Perhaps a month or so later, I was introduced to Emerald. It gave me much better performance on my laptop, so I’ve stuck with it ever since, even though I got a powerful HP desktop in August 2009. Emerald is THE BEST viewer available for SL, without exception.
I’m sorry all of this happened, because without Emerald I don’t know what I’d do. LL’s viewer 2 series is a non-starter for me. Period. I do keep 1.23 on my system as a backup and test viewer. None of the other 3rd party viewers I’ve tried come even remotely close to Emerald’s quality and features.
So Dev Team, I applaud all your efforts to stick with keeping the Emerald Project alive. If LL was smart, which I often doubt, it would adopt Emerald as it’s official open source viewer. They would give you devs the resources — and, yes, oversight — you need to continue to push the envelope of viewer development. Their in-house viewers can be used to set the overall direction LL wants for the SL experience.
Now, if only I could convince whoever does this website and the new Emerald.net one to PLEASE use a different skin. Sigh. These tiny white text on black backgrounds skins are horrible.
Sirius Selona said this on August 30, 2010 at 3:49 pm |
AH EMERALD ROCKS AND SOME OF THIS IS OBVIOUSLY LL whining cause average users like emerald better than LL V.2 (Which SUCKS !!!)
Please give us the features that LL cant seem to figure out how to develope in there own second life world…thanks Emerald team fix it and move on :)LL will eventually realise if they dont fix there crappy viewer than user will continue to use 3rd party software no matter what..is really going on behind the scenes…LOYAL USER always.
johan said this on August 30, 2010 at 4:25 pm |
The longer this stuff goes on, the more I am siding with Emerald and the further I am getting from LL. My take on all this is that LL is out to destroy Emerald and are adding requirements upon requirements upon requirements that may be unreasonable. I would not doubt if there wsa some kind of requirements somewhere that not even LL has met.
Come on LL!!! Grow up already. Just accept the fact that Emerald has a better viewer and make the best of it. Instead of all this bickering about meeting requirements and everyone pointing fingers, why cant Emerald and LL just get along and work toward making Second Life the best online world. The Emerald viewer compliments SL.
If LL is so upset that Emerald has a better viewer, then I suggest LL stop this nonesense with Emerald and actually build a viewer that people will like. I have tried SL 2 and I hate it. SL 2 is not user friendly at all.
Lets face it! LL has provided us with an awesome online world and Emerald has provided us with an awesome viewer to make the best of that online world. Why cant Emerald and LL co-exist?
Anonymous said this on August 30, 2010 at 5:19 pm |
Is anyone else concerned about the Team’s statement that the installer “grabs” the emkdu.dll file, even tho it is NOT in the 2578 installer?
I SURE AM.
Even after removing Emerald, emkdu was found hiding in the LOCAL TEMP files. This worries me mightily. I’ve deleted it and 2578 looks clean now, but who knows?
Chuckie Breda said this on August 30, 2010 at 5:50 pm |
Tonya is quite right – some installers try to be too clever :).
Maybe it would be possible to put a separate process at the end of the install to remove it.
Hitomi Tiponi said this on August 30, 2010 at 7:13 pm |
Honestly, this kinda hits me 2 ways. On one hand, I’m not sure if seriously sensitive info ends up going through Emerald or not. Like say, Credit card info. Can anyone really prove now that stuff we -need- to keep safe, is? If one dev is going to initiate such nastiness as DDOS attacks, how do we know the others won’t do something bad when their mood turns foul?
On the other hand, Linden has come a bit out of left field with this sudden list of requirements. Why have they not pushed for these before, if they were going to now? Yes something bad happend, that should -not- be -the- reason to make changes they wanted all along!
Now, there’s a third point too. I use Emerald only because of some certain features, not because it’s faster or everyone uses it. So, list aside, can any Emerald dev simply disclose if a -feature- of the client is going to not exist after this list is completed? Seriously, we don’t need to see the list. Most of us probably aren’t even coders enough to make sense of it!
But there are a lot of us that rely on Emerald for things that LL just -won’t- put into their own viewer, but need to! Can any Dev left even tell us if emerald is going to be changed for good after this? That a beloved feature that sets it apart is going away? Your secrecy around this development list is not just about the list itself, as you can see. But yet we never get the stuff we -really- want to hear.. what’s going to happen to Emerald after this list is implemented? It makes me feel like they’re hiding it because they -KNOW- that some item in the list -IS- going to negatively effect Emerald, and they’d rather not put people off
to the client -right now- by revealing as much.
Due to this.. I’m going to watch these developments. But at the same time, I’m going to switch to Viewer 2 for logging in, until such time as we find the final fate of Emerald, what the devs are/are not going to do, how much we can hold anyone accountable if our sensitive information is screwed, and what features will/will not be effected by these changes. I hope things work out for the better.. but in the end we all have to cover our butts, too!
Monolith said this on August 30, 2010 at 8:19 pm |
Credit card info does not go through emerald :p
Credit card info goes through the Linden Lab Website which opens in a separate browser window. You don’t enter that information anywhere in Emerald. All emerald does is send an instruction to Linden Lab to USE the information that *they* have on file.
Stone Taggart said this on August 31, 2010 at 10:08 am |
Maybe you can fix the Search for LL they seem to be stuck
chuckie said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:49 pm |
Hmm. Well that is a problem Tonya. Because I have been playing with V2, as a means to test the media on prim stuff, I plan to use for later projects, when it ever ends up in other clients, and I do like 1-2 other actually useful things they are doing with it. I would like to like some of the things in Imprudence, as a builder, but, sadly, it doesn’t actually “do” any of them in a way that removes the need to stupid solutions. Example – their website implies you can multiple a rotation by an offset, but there is a) no way to set one, and b) you **cannot** apply such an offset to only one rotation at a time, and get the right result. This is the whole problem with the prim edit controls, you can’t get “predicable” results on certain combinations of rotation, or offset copies, so they land angled right, or in the right place, and Imprudence fails to address this, while given less useful things instead…
Seems to me, we have a dozen different clients, 2-3 good ideas in each one, and no one actually trying to integrate them, or fix the things that don’t work to start with.
This means, unfortunately, that you cannot **guarantee** that a client that does have emkdu.dll in it won’t be on the system, since some people may have several installed, that it won’t get “repaired” by Windows to “repair” things, and that the result won’t screw things up. So, your description of how to properly fix it, doesn’t.
I understand the difficulty, but either something has to be done to stop windows trying to do that at all, which means not even having it *able* to use it, or Linden needs to give up on this absurd requirement, since, as long as the OS refuses to cooperate, I don’t see how you can make sure the client complies (albeit failing to do so by accident).
Kagehi said this on August 30, 2010 at 10:54 pm |
Oh Sirius, how much I agree with the last part of your message
(Now, if only I could convince whoever does this website and the new Emerald.net one to PLEASE use a different skin. Sigh. These tiny white text on black backgrounds skins are horrible.)
I have sat and read every word that has been written and now I have the mother of all headaches. Please please at least make the font larger.
Pim Strom said this on August 31, 2010 at 1:02 am |
ok some of us know some people don’t but don’tjudge everyone the same. if those that want to know print the full list, those that don’t understand but love emerald will wait but those that want the list give it to them not ever one is a dumb as in computing and look to people who have the knowladge to look out for us.
this cloak and dagger attuide or treating people like they don’t have a brain why not just print the full list or is there something your hiding and dont want us to know?
just blinking well post it end and done with you guys can the focus on working on what you need to do and let people discuss it which is the right of human being.
you would be building a good realationship to those who are sticking with you … while you mend realtionships and more importantly trust how you guys are acting does it show trust … perhaps but to me at the moment it doesn’t and is throwing up red lights … people like openess and upfrontness …
so come on it can’t be all that bad can it?
just want some truth said this on August 31, 2010 at 1:51 am |
Weee…… More and open communication. Somehow that doesn’t really gel with how LL themselves operate. It’s great to see more with Emerald, but if LL insisting that you do it, why don’t they do it themselves.
Astarte said this on August 31, 2010 at 2:49 am |
I love the Emerald viewer and will use and support it until they prise it out of my cold dead hands :)
Marky Helstein said this on August 31, 2010 at 2:58 am |
I enjoy building in SL and Emerald is simply the best viewer available to suit my needs. I’m 100% behind your efforts.
JayR Cela :_)
JayR Cela said this on August 31, 2010 at 3:07 am |
It is starting to look like this is an unreasonable requirement from LL that may not be able to be fixed if it is working against the Windows OS. Maybe LL needs to ease up on this requirement. I dont think Microsoft will rewrite their OS just to please LL or Emerald.
Anonymous said this on August 31, 2010 at 4:30 am |
LL… if you want to find blame and fault, knock on Microsofts door. Sounds like to me that this is completely out of Emeralds control or ability to fix. For LL to continue to make this a requirement of Emerald to fix is down right stupid!!! (a strike against LL imho).
What this all seems to boil down to is LL seems to be jealous of any other TPV especially Emerald, because SL 2 viewer is garbage. If SL 2 was as user friendly as Emerald and had all the features that Emerald has, I would switch over but… no way!! I will keep using Emerald until I am banned from using it. Even if LL banned Emerald, I would not use SL 2. I would find another TPV to use instead. Long live Emerald!!!! Long live Emerald!!!!
Anonymous said this on August 31, 2010 at 4:47 am |
A lot of the emerald boycotting is based on the stupidest goddamn reasons ever. EMERALD VIEWER HAS NO GRIEFING FEATURES OR CAPABILITIES. EMERALD VIEWER IS NOT A GRIEFING TOOL. It’s unfortunate that some people who wrote code for Emerald had also written code for Griefers, but that’s like saying “I REFUSE TO BREATHE AIR BECAUSE HITLER BREATHED AIR!”
The subjects are COMPLETELY unrelated, and if you just look at the FEATURE list, point for point, Emerald is BETTER than anything that anyone else can offer. Period.
Stone Taggart said this on August 31, 2010 at 10:01 am |
Jessica, a few questions on the points you have addressed.
“Use open mailing lists or forums for your developer communications:” Does this mean that all developer communications will now be via the forums? Will we see feature implementation debated there, rather than on a private list? I understand that meetings are also desirable, but will you be maintaining private back-channel communication we aren’t able to see?
“Provide a publicly viewable source code repository:” Is the Mercurial repository you’ve made public the one the builds will be done from, or is it a mirror?
I anxiously await your revelation of the other requirements. I’d like to trust you guys again.
Jack Abraham said this on August 31, 2010 at 10:21 am |
Trackback: http://noorloam.blogspot.com/2010/08/battle-of-viewers.html
Noor said this on August 31, 2010 at 8:56 pm |
Correct me if I am wrong, but if all references to emkdu were taken out of the code for both viewer and installer ( if any ), Windows wouldn’t go look for it and install it. Wouldn’t that be easier than expecting people that know nothing of they system to go search and remove it? or in writing a utility to do the same? Just get rid of the bloody things and be done with it.
Jamie said this on August 31, 2010 at 8:57 pm |
Having calls to kdu in a second life viewer is A Good Thing ™. The default rendering engine if it is not present is openjpeg but kdu is usually faster. Calls to the functions do not care if they are in emkdu or llkdu though. The installer is what you would need to patch.
KaraSpengler said this on September 1, 2010 at 3:13 am |
Ah, as pointed out below you would not need to make the change to the emerald installer. Simply search your system for all copies of llkdu, select them all, then hit delete and empty your trash.
KaraSpengler said this on September 1, 2010 at 3:15 am
KaraSpengler
But only a few of the many Emerald users will Search and Delete it.
Most do not read this Blog they just use the Viewer because it is better than all the others.
Surely also people want the fastest and not want to slow the viewer down.
June said this on September 1, 2010 at 5:08 am
So, listen. I have been very cautious and skeptical about Emerald after the variety of the many meltdowns it has gone through recently. I have tried Imprudence as an alternative, and I like it a lot.
But, the fact is, 2587 is an AMAZING viewer!!! Best I have ever seen in SL. Makes SL a splendid experience. FAST, stable, versatile, just splendid!!!
I’m disturbed about the installer grabbing emkdu, but I’ve deleted it from the LOCAL TEMP files, and substituted llkdu.So, I am relatively confident that I’m safe. I’m praying I’m not wrong.
I admire the Emerald dev team for their efforts, but I have NO blind loyalty to them. When it comes to internet security, there is no place for brand loyalty.
But, 2587 is SO DAMN GOOD!!!!!!
I’m back.
Chuckie Breda said this on August 31, 2010 at 10:44 pm |
The Emerald Viewer will be fixed no doubt. Viewer 2 was a mistake. Bashing Emerald on something of a whatever nature will allow the source code to be visible to Linden Labs and basically they get a 1st Class Viewer for FREE! Folks, Get Over It All! I believe the list will make Linden Labs look bad in the long run and Emerald Team is watching out for them. When the creation gets stronger than the creator basically the creator takes away everything from the creation and appropriates it all. You need to empathize with both Linden Labs and Emerald Team. Second Life is a World where you should have no complaints and understand the larger pictures of it all. At one time a friend told me she pole danced and that was good money in her country. Put food on her table. I know Linden Labs is squeezing its Next Generation Viewer for FREE and I will not say one bad word because Second Life makes a real contribution to peoples lives. Second Life pretty much is ready to enter its Second Life and what better way than through a 1st Class viewer like Emerald.
ll Torii said this on September 1, 2010 at 6:22 am |
Well Ted…. a lot words for something that has died. My opinion is let a dead horese die. We know that LL will kill what is left anyway. And for you “educated information, LL my not control Open source but it DOES control secondlife and can and does dictate what goes on in SL. So why all the words.
Chief Blackhawk said this on September 3, 2010 at 2:45 pm |
Well, from what I gather, they finally prised Emerald from my cold dead hands :-/ To the majority of developers on the Emerald team, you can all be proud that you had a part in the creation of a truly amazing product – IMHO THE best Second Life viewer ever.
To the small remainder of the team who’s actions brought about this tragic situation – you are probably smart guys too and did your bit for a time but you just got above yourselves and ruined it for everyone. Hope you are proud of that :-/
To Ted – you sir are a complete f**king idiot.
Anyways, I’m sure that we’ll see many members of this talented team again on other projects, sadder and wiser like the rest of us who have ever worked on major projects like this :) Thank you all for creating something truly wonderful and paving the way for future viewer projects to build upon :)
Marky Helstein said this on September 3, 2010 at 4:07 pm |
Can I has Cheeseburgers now???
AWOL cat said this on September 5, 2010 at 1:15 pm |
EMERALD VIEWER IS THE BEST VIEWER,I love it so much and I will use emerald always,sure.
Barbara said this on September 6, 2010 at 10:01 am |